If anyone is interested, there is a website that tells you about dangerous sunscreens and safer sunscreens.....Just google Environmental Working Group (EWG) and you should find their site. They rate sunscreens with numbers from 1 to 10......and surprise....most of the sunscreens we all use have been given 7 and 8's! Which they say to stay far away from. Some of the most common ingredients seem to do something to the estrogen in your body, which is not good..........

Anyway,...... take a look around the site, and you will get a good education......and they also tell you which sun screens they rate as a 1 or 2, which are, according to them....much safer.......

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Skygirl5 from MMH

A few people got a little upset with me last time I posted my personal opinion about EWG, but for the record, I have some real issues with their brand of 'science'. Here's an interesting read on the EWG:

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/113-environmental-working-group

And another source: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6928



And not that I'm a huge fan of Paula B, here is a link to what she has to say about the EWG and their ratings for cosmetics:

http://www.cosmeticscop.com/dear-paula-makeup.aspx

I simply have a few problems with their methodology, but that's not to say that everything they list or say is without merit. Just the way they couch/slant things is bothersome to me.

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DCNGA has left the board and is no longer taking PMs.
She requests that if you wish to e-mail her to use her direct e-mail address which is: laserandiplsupport@gmail.com

hmmm. If you put high spf european sunscreen on your lips, you'd probably end up swallowing some small traces of the sunscreen, every time you lick your lips, have a drink or have a bite to eat. They have lip balms with spf, but they're usually really low in spf. So it's like choosing between nice lips and cancer maybe. Not a difficult choice there.

I had bookmarked that site a couple years back, and even scoured the shelves of local stores for the recommended brands - found NONE of them. Then a Whole Foods opened up not far away and I did find a couple from the list. But - as you can surmise - all the recommended sunblocks were of the zinc/titanium oxide genre, and I'd look like a geisha. Feh.

I hope the FDA gets off its lazy bureaucratic arse and approves some of the UVA ratings so WE can have the same safe sunblocks as in Europe. It's just too much of a hassle for me to order from overseas, convert the money, hope the site is legit, and wait for the order to come.

So I stick with Clinique Medical SPF 38 Daily (with turmeric even). For some reason, that sunblock has always seemed to nourish my face - even when it was RAW with ugly post-staph healing from the MixTo laser resurfacing. I never broke out from using it even once. And it would be on my face for hours - even re-applied.

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I Bug U

Hey! That's cool, Kosmeds! I will surf up there directly! Canada I can do! Thanks~


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I Bug U

Here's the formula:

Actives:
Avobenzone-3.00% Homosalate-4.00% Octisalate-4.00%

Inactives:
Water\Aqua\Eau, Methyl Trimethicone, Neopentyl Glycol Diheptanoate, Jojoba Esters, Butylene Glycol, Polyester-8, Butyloctyl Salicylate, PEG-100 Stearate, Silica, Dipentaerythrityl Tri-Polyhydroxystearate, Lauryl PEG-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Dimethicone, Glyceryl Stearate, Curcuma Longa (Turmeric) Root Extract, Sea Whip Extract, Potassium Cetyl Phosphate, C30-38 Olefin/Isoproyl Maleate/MA Copolymer, Cetyl Alcohol, VP/Eicosene Copolymer, Caprylyl Glycol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Sodium RNA, Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer, Ammonium Acryloyldimethyltaurate/VP Copolymer, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, PEG-8 Laurate, Stearic Acid, Xanthan Gum, Disodium EDTA, Mica.



Yes, it does have one of the ingredients known to stabilize avobenzone. The latest list of things that do is on the wiki page for avobenzone.

Octocrylene
4-Methylbenzylidene camphor (USAN Enzacamene)
Tinosorb S (USAN Bemotrizinol, INCI Bis-Ethylhexyloxyphenol Methoxyphenyl Triazine)
Tinosorb M (USAN Bisoctrizole, INCI Methylene Bis-Benzotriazolyl Tetramethylbutylphenol)
Butyloctyl Salicylate (Tradename HallBrite BHB - [1])
Hexadecyl Benzoate
Butyloctyl Benzoate
Mexoryl SX (USAN Ecamsule, INCI Terephthalylidene Dicamphor Sulfonic Acid)
Corapan TQ (INCI Diethylhexyl 2,6-Naphthalate)
Parsol SLX (INCI Polysilicone-15)
Oxynex ST (INCI Diethylhexyl Syringylidene Malonate)
Polycrylene (INCI Polyester-8)
SolaStay® S1 (INCI Ethylhexyl Methoxycrylene)

But I suspect that some of those fancy silicone esters are also ehancing stability, even though they haven't been identified as such. There are a lot of performance enhancers on the market now, though not all targeted for avobenzone, that boost the protection of a formulation by stabilizing the emulsion, enhancing solubility, forming a protective coating around certain filters, and making a strong, stable film that holds on the skin and isn't easily broken.

But still, this is not a formula I would pay for. I'd want a very high UVA protection factor with an overt UVA rating and a much lower unit cost.

That's only the unstable ones. The stabilized versions do not lose potency of the filters themselves. But the thickness of the protective layer does thin with time regardless of filters used (chemical, physical, stable, or unstable). Since they aren't tested on oily faces with other layers of skin products (makeup, moisturizers, etc.) you can't guarantee lasting protection with anything unless the formulation is unusually tenacious as well as stable. I suggest reapplying as often as feasible and also using hats/visors and sunglasses.

[There is still UVA light that bounces off sidewalks, other light objects, etc, onto face in all directions, even while wearing a broad brim hat, or so I've read. ]

Yes, this is also true for UVB. Pavement, sand, snow, and water all create reflections that a hat can't block. Also, hats are best at peak insolation and not so good in the early morning or late afternoon. When the sun is at an angle, they aren't as protective.

[Do you think this Clinique ss and others with similar ingredients have a rather low PPD? ]

Yes. The PPD is no more than 8 and probably lower than that. One can do much better. I don't think department stores offer the best skincare. The prices are usually outrageous compared to drugstore and Euro or Canadian formulations.

[I think there are similar options in the U.S. now that would cost much less, since this one is rather pricey, even if just for the face. People think EU ss are too expensive, but there are places online to get for decent prices and big tubes, as you know, and much higher UVA protection. ]

Yes, I think I paid $19.95 for 200 ml of PPD 22 which is about $3/oz. Shipping was about $12 USD but I got 5 bottles at once which added about $0.36 to each oz but had no tax. At $3.36/oz this is still much cheaper than the Clinique which is $24/oz including tax (I use 7% tax which is the going rate in my area).

With a Euro or Canadian formulation you can get about 3-4x as much UVA protection including shipping costs at about 1/7 of the cost of a high-end USA formulation. This would exclude some of the better Lancome sunscreens, which are about PPD 15 now if they include Mexoryl SX, but are still just as expensive as Clinique.

Totally agree. I would not advise anyone spending a dime on the high-end department store lines. They won't hold a candle to rx retinoids or high PPD sunscreens. Everything else is going to be of very limited scope of action and not worth spending money on. But a lot of people have confided in me, "But, I love the way it makes me FEEL." I guess some people feel more pampered when they spend more money. And that is one thing the high end has--lots of very new, better film formers and emollient esters for an elegant spread and feel, much more expensive packaging, and of course the intangible associations with their high priced advertising campaigns, which are passed on to the consumer.

But they are largely ineffectual. If their actives actually did anything significant, they would be reclassified as drugs.

Kosmeds, I have another question if you don't mind. Since it's getting very hot here in NYC, especially this coming week in the 90's, I was wondering if it's ok to store EU sunscreens in the refrigerator. I'm not in my apt. most of the day, so the air conditioner is not turned on. When I walk in, I see the temp is sometimes upper 80s, 90, when it's very hot outside, like today.
I have several bottles of EU sunscreen which I keep in my closet (bedroom), doesn't seem that hot in there, but the entire apt. feels warm, so I wonder if it's not ideal storage conditions for these sunscreens. I thought they started to lose stability when they become very hot. I don't feel the tubes hot at all, but since the temp in the room is high, I wonder if it's better to store in the fridge. Do you think that would be ok?

Yes, better to keep them in the fridge. I keep my sunscreens and my retinoids in the fridge because they last longer that way. I don't care as much about the rest of my weapons.

My house gets really hot from April-October.