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I have been using hydroquinone and it works, but I want to go off that and use something else to maintain my results. Any product or ingredient recommendations?
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If you read this once, you'll read it 100 times: SUNBLOCK. Plain and simple. I like Clinique Medical Daily SPF 38. ========================= kacey06 wrote:I have been using hydroquinone and it works, but I want to go off that and use something else to maintain my results. Any product or ingredient recommendations? I Bug U
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Member
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Thanks, I do use a zinc sunscreen already!
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Try one of the European ones that Kosmeds recommends which contain PPD. I ordered two (spray) bottles of the LRP (Anthelios)for around $50 w/shipping. It will probably last me six months.
DCNGA has left the board and is no longer taking PMs. She requests that if you wish to e-mail her to use her direct e-mail address which is: laserandiplsupport@gmail.com
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Member
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kacey06 wrote:Thanks, I do use a zinc sunscreen already! Not to sound like a broken record but you can get much higher UVA protection (formulations are available with up to 10x more protection) with high PPD rated European formulations that include Mexoryl SX, Mexoryl XL, Tinosorb M, and Tinosorb S. PPD provides a measure of protection from pigment darkening. Zinc oxide has a good breadth of protection but is very inefficient, i.e. it covers the wavelengths but not very much. You may think you don't need very high UVA protection but considering the fact that most USA ZnO based sunscreens provide PPD of 8 or less and that actual use factors (not applying enough, not reapplying often enough) generally bring this down to about 1.5-2, I'd say, yes, everyone benefits from much higher UVA protection. Most especially the manufacturers, but now and then they do a good deed. IMHO this is one of those few worthwhile pursuits.
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Member
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kosmeds wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record but you can get much higher UVA protection (formulations are available with up to 10x more protection) with high PPD rated European formulations that include Mexoryl SX, Mexoryl XL, Tinosorb M, and Tinosorb S. PPD provides a measure of protection from pigment darkening. Zinc oxide has a good breadth of protection but is very inefficient, i.e. it covers the wavelengths but not very much.
You may think you don't need very high UVA protection but considering the fact that most USA ZnO based sunscreens provide PPD of 8 or less and that actual use factors (not applying enough, not reapplying often enough) generally bring this down to about 1.5-2, I'd say, yes, everyone benefits from much higher UVA protection. Most especially the manufacturers, but now and then they do a good deed. IMHO this is one of those few worthwhile pursuits.
Thanks kosmeds. The problem for me with the European formulas is that I tan and freckle right through them. I measured my 1/4 teaspoon and I am not out in the sun longer than 1 hour at a time. If I was going to go back out, I would apply more, and I still freckled and tanned right through them. I don't do that with the zinc oxide sunscreens, which keep the freckles off, but I have deeper age spots that when I go off hydroquinone they come right back.
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I don't think 1/4 tsp is enough, 1/2 would be better. If it's a very light, elegant formulation 1/2 tsp might not be enough, either. Plus you must reapply and wear a hat/visor and sunglasses. I never trust sunscreen alone. If you can't see it and feel it, don't count on much protection. The most substantive formulations are most trustworthy on the face. Also check the expiration date, the potential interactions with other products on your face, and how it was stored/shipped. I keep mine in the fridge.
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kosmeds wrote:I don't think 1/4 tsp is enough, 1/2 would be better. If it's a very light, elegant formulation 1/2 tsp might not be enough, either. Plus you must reapply and wear a hat/visor and sunglasses. I never trust sunscreen alone. If you can't see it and feel it, don't count on much protection. The most substantive formulations are most trustworthy on the face. Also check the expiration date, the potential interactions with other products on your face, and how it was stored/shipped. I keep mine in the fridge. Thanks, kosmeds. I actually used the European sunscreen (Anthelios) when I was on Nu Derm. Maybe there was some reaction with those products? I will check into the European ones again and try to use more of it!
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kacey06 wrote:
Thanks, kosmeds. I actually used the European sunscreen (Anthelios) when I was on Nu Derm. Maybe there was some reaction with those products?
Yes, that's the most likely problem. Most sunscreens are formulated around neutral pH (7.0) and the Obagi stuff is on the acid side. Depends on which products. I don't know their clear and blender pHs but HQ is most stable at pH 4.0 or below so I am guessing that those products are probably around 3.5. So if you were applying your sunscreen over a thick layer of pH 3.5 yes you could be deactivating the filters. I don't think it's a problem over C serums as much because even though many of these are at pH 3.5 or below, application directions typically specify use of 2-3 drops (1/10 of a ml or so) all over neck and face as opposed to several mls of products for face alone as in Obagi instructions for hydroquinone products.
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kosmeds wrote:
Yes, that's the most likely problem. Most sunscreens are formulated around neutral pH (7.0) and the Obagi stuff is on the acid side. Depends on which products. I don't know their clear and blender pHs but HQ is most stable at pH 4.0 or below so I am guessing that those products are probably around 3.5. So if you were applying your sunscreen over a thick layer of pH 3.5 yes you could be deactivating the filters.
I don't think it's a problem over C serums as much because even though many of these are at pH 3.5 or below, application directions typically specify use of 2-3 drops (1/10 of a ml or so) all over neck and face as opposed to several mls of products for face alone as in Obagi instructions for hydroquinone products.
Ok. That does make sense. I wondered why I would tan/freckle through the Anthelios when other people were just loving it! I do use a C serum, so it is good to hear that it is not a problem with the sunscreen.
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Joined: 11/5/2009 Posts: 523 Points: 1,775 Location: USA
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So what is the ABSOLUTE best sunscreen out there to put on the face and body? I'm out in the sun every single day, unfortunately, as my boys like to swim in the summer and we are at the pool every day. I'm using Water Babies Pure and Simple right now, and although I never burn, I am getting extremely dark. Any idea why I'm getting so dark and what product will not let any rays to my skin? Thanks.
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Talullah wrote:So what is the ABSOLUTE best sunscreen out there to put on the face and body? Bioderma Photoderm Sensitive SPF 50+/PPD 40 has the highest UVA protection rating of all. But there are several other Bioderma and La Roche Posay Anthelios products with PPDs in the 20-35 range. La Roche Posay SPF 50+ Lait or Cream, or Bioderma Photoderm Max are all extremely high in UVA protection. The sprays which I prefer for my face are somewhat lower in PPD, but still about 2-4x as protective as most USA formulations. [I'm using Water Babies Pure and Simple right now, and although I never burn, I am getting extremely dark. Any idea why I'm getting so dark and what product will not let any rays to my skin? Thanks.] That's because UVA is what causes darkening/tanning and this sunscreen provides minimal protection from it. You need something with a very high PPD rating, as above. You will need to reapply it often. PPD is not an ingredient, it is a measure of protection from tanning. SPF is to UVB/burning what PPD is to UVA/tanning. The higher, the better. The rays that cause sagging are closer to the pigment darkening spectrum than to the burning spectrum. So when you choose a high PPD sunscreen, you are getting much more anti-aging benefit than something with high SPF and low PPD. FDA has not yet declared an official UVA protection rating but it looks like they are going to dumb it down with a pending star system (0-4 stars) rather than an actual PPD number. I'd rather have the very high PPD number so I'll keep buying European ones until that happens.
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Thanks so much, kosmeds. Where do you order yours from? I don't know which sites are reputable for ordering that kind of thing.
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Talullah wrote:Thanks so much, kosmeds. Where do you order yours from? I don't know which sites are reputable for ordering that kind of thing. I got mine from pharmazon.gr last time.
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Wait, is that 50 spf PPD stuff better than ultra high uv protection? I use the european Photoderm Max spf 100 during the summer. It's water resistant, but I still find that it doesn't hold up during jetskiing. Maybe saltwater has something to do with it. For my arms I use an american spray so it can easily go between all the crevices like between fingers and stuff- Spf 80 with helioplex-(whatever that is).
Another question I have is with SPF. When I looked up the term SPF years ago in the dictionary it said that it was merely a bar which determined how LONG an SPF lasted rather than how much protection it gives. I remember the dictionary had an actual mathmatical formula which showed you how you can use the number on the SPF bottle to show you how long it was going to give protection. So I got the impression that an SPF 15 works just as well as an SPF 100 if & only if you're only in the sun for a few minutes- at which time you would have to reapply the SPF 15 to get any further protection. Am I wrong about this?
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kacey06 wrote:
Ok. That does make sense. I wondered why I would tan/freckle through the Anthelios when other people were just loving it! I do use a C serum, so it is good to hear that it is not a problem with the sunscreen.
I was reading an article the other day examining why it is the inuit people are dark skinned even though they've been living in the arctic for centuries and it mentioned as a side note that melanin is also produced when the optic nerve receives info on sunlight so it sends a message to the brain to produce more melanin. So I guess this means that even if you put all the sunscreen in the world on you might still develop some sun spots if your eyeballs are exposed to sunlight. Too bad they don't have high SPF spray for the optic nerve.
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delilah wrote:Wait, is that 50 spf PPD stuff better than ultra high uv protection? I use the european Photoderm Max spf 100 during the summer. Photoderm max does have a very high PPD. You can scarcely do better. [It's water resistant, but I still find that it doesn't hold up during jetskiing. ] Nothing will hold up to jetskiing. [Another question I have is with SPF. When I looked up the term SPF years ago in the dictionary it said that it was merely a bar which determined how LONG an SPF lasted rather than how much protection it gives. ] SPF is merely time to change on protected skin/time to change on unprotected skin where the change is reddening. Skin protected with higher SPF formulations take a longer time for the skin to turn red than lower SPF formulations. PPD works the same way but the color change is brown, not red. [So I got the impression that an SPF 15 works just as well as an SPF 100 if & only if you're only in the sun for a few minutes- at which time you would have to reapply the SPF 15 to get any further protection.] Well, SPF is defined by a ratio of changes over time. Five minutes is not enough to burn most people. So not getting burned isn't saying much. You're still going to get more UV radiation with a lower SPF and PPD formulation, and even doses too small to produce a color change will damage. The damage is cumulative, so it's best to block out as much as possible if you care about your looks. And get your D from a pill. I don't believe the Innuit are dark because of what they receive from their optic nerves. I believe they are dark because snow reflects UV radiation. Sunglasses are good for protecting the eyes, provided they wrap-around. I've mentioned wrap sunglasses repeatedly, because some rays will get through the sides otherwise.
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Are you sure it said "melanin" and NOT; "melatonin"; a hormone that responds to light--something that helps sleep? Not sure but but if there is any sun there, the rays get intensified with the snow and ice due to the reflection. Also, think they migrated years ago from a place where people were darker. delilah wrote:
I was reading an article the other day examining why it is the inuit people are dark skinned even though they've been living in the arctic for centuries and it mentioned as a side note that melanin is also produced when the optic nerve receives info on sunlight so it sends a message to the brain to produce more melanin. So I guess this means that even if you put all the sunscreen in the world on you might still develop some sun spots if your eyeballs are exposed to sunlight. Too bad they don't have high SPF spray for the optic nerve.
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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MissJ wrote:Are you sure it said "melanin" and NOT; "melatonin"; a hormone that responds to light--something that helps sleep?
Not sure but but if there is any sun there, the rays get intensified with the snow and ice due to the reflection. Also, think they migrated years ago from a place where people were darker.
I went looking for the article again to be sure. It actually says melanin- it's at the end of the 4th paragraph. http://www.scienceline.org/2007/06/18/ask-dricoll-inuiteskimos/I believe it concludes with what you said about their ancestors originating from elsewhere, and then attributes their skin not going lighter to adjust over the centuries due to vitamin consumption. Seems a little weird to me that vitamin consumption would prevent evolution's adjustment to the environment, but what do I know.
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kosmeds wrote:
Nothing will hold up to jetskiing.
That's too bad, I love jetskiing. Would do it every day if I could. Thanks for all the info.
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