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First let me say I am skeptical. I do not believe that an OTC combo will be as effective as 0.02% tretinoin for reversing photodamage. A lot of the visible benefit could simply be due to moisturizer plumping up the skin. The Proctor & Gamble people have been suggesting this for years. Earlier this year a study was published. They compared their niacinamide/peptide/retinyl propionate moisturizing regimen to a 0.02% tretinoin cream. Subjects for both used SPF 30 during the day. They got decent results. See for yourself, it's a free paper. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841824/pdf/bjd0162-0647.pdfI don't keep up with the market and don't know which products correspond to the actives tested here; I would guess they are under the Olay umbrella. But if you are looking for improvement without irritation, if you've tried and rejected tretinoin and tazarotene, it might be a place to start. I don't think it's competitive with tazarotene or tretinoin and SPF 50/PPD 30 sunscreen but one could do far worse. Also these products tend to be inexpensive. They might be worth a try for the people who are on the dry, sensitive side and not acne-prone.
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Peptides are hot in cosmetic cremes these days and are said to have some good effects. I guess you can still use them along with your retin a.
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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I tried Matrixyl, it didn't impress me. But taz does. Yeah, there is no reason why you can't use both. You can also do niacinamide as a DIY, it is very cheap and water soluble, one of those things that is easily added to most existing formulations around a neutral pH (sunscreens, moisturizers, etc.).
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What about crushed niacin--the type that makes on flush? Like to pulverize it and use as mask or am I asking for trouble?
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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Niacin is the acid form. I suspect it's even more effective than the pH neutral niacinamide, probably penetrates better but more irritating to the skin. Also, with crushing tablets you also get the unwanted filler and possible graininess. I bought some niacnamide here: http://www.easycart.net/BeyondACenturyInc./B_Vitamins.htmlI still "doctor" my commercial sunscreens with it at around 5%. I can't say I've ever noticed a difference (or even done a split-face comparison). It's more of a situation where I bought it, so I use it. But when I use taz gel heavily (2x/day 3 days in a row), I get compliments on my skin. I don't think anything compares for regular use aside from a high PPD sunscreen.
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I use a little retin a--not much though, 1X a day.
I put vitamin E and co enzyme 10 (ubiquitone) under my sunblock, then slather make up with a lot of zinc and titanium oxide over that.
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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kosmeds wrote:
But when I use taz gel heavily (2x/day 3 days in a row), I get compliments on my skin. I don't think anything compares for regular use aside from a high PPD sunscreen.
Kosmeds, I've done the same thing, use taz gel heavily (mostly when I got some break outs on my t-zone) but I just slather all over, then slowly peel. But in a few days, my skin starts getting much smoother (as the flakes peel off) and more even toned, even more supple looking. I just thought it was a side effect of the irritation from the high dose taz. But when I do that over time, it does make my skin look really good. But it also makes me more susceptible to freckling from the sun, during summer, even with high PPD. What do you think about brewing green or white tea, letting it cool and applying on face, then drying and applying sunscreen? Do you think it will work as well as some green tea antioxidant formulas out there? I have a Korean friend who told me that her grandmother has used green tea powder (they sell it in the Asian supermarket imported from Korea) mixed with water to rinse her face for yrs, and she has nice skin. Could be partly genetic, but I wonder if it does have antioxidant benefit when applied directly on skin, or does it need other ingredients to actually have much benefit on skin.
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Violeta, the concentration of polyphenols is too small for a regular batch of tea. Typical therapeutic topical concentration of EGCG is 1-2% while the polphenol fraction in general occurs at about 10% by dry weight in tea (where EGCG is only a part of this). If you use it to wash your face, you are going to be washing it off mostly. It would be better as a leave-on.
If you make a leave-on toner from tea, considering that you use less than a tsp of tea per cup of tea, and maybe 1/20 of the dry weight matter stays in the liquid, you're off by orders of magnitude. Also, a prepared solution would not last more than 3 days in the refrigerator without oxidizing.
BHT can keep it from oxidizing for months.
But if you want to try it, you're better off with a purified EGCG rather than the tea itself.
I had read something about topical use and facial fat loss a few years ago and I stopped using it. I can't find a reference at the moment, though.
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[it also makes me more susceptible to freckling from the sun, during summer, even with high PPD. ] Are you using one of these? These have PPDs near 40. I seriously doubt you would freckle if you applied as directed, and reapplied every 2 hours as directed. I'd use a wide-brimmed visor, too. http://www.bioderma.com/en/nc/the-products/what-s-new/category/91.html
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kosmeds wrote:Violeta, the concentration of polyphenols is too small for a regular batch of tea. Typical therapeutic topical concentration of EGCG is 1-2% while the polphenol fraction in general occurs at about 10% by dry weight in tea (where EGCG is only a part of this). If you use it to wash your face, you are going to be washing it off mostly. It would be better as a leave-on.
If you make a leave-on toner from tea, considering that you use less than a tsp of tea per cup of tea, and maybe 1/20 of the dry weight matter stays in the liquid, you're off by orders of magnitude. Also, a prepared solution would not last more than 3 days in the refrigerator without oxidizing.
BHT can keep it from oxidizing for months.
But if you want to try it, you're better off with a purified EGCG rather than the tea itself.
I had read something about topical use and facial fat loss a few years ago and I stopped using it. I can't find a reference at the moment, though. Thanks for the info. I figured it wouldn't be that simple, and there has to be something to preserve it. I also remember something about fat loss and tea, but I think it was due to the caffeine. But if white tea is used in the formula, it would have much less caffeine, I would think. I also am reluctant to try coffee berry for this reason, even though it's supposed to be a potent antioxidant. Maybe the caffeine content is minimal, but I can imagine over time, it may cause some fat loss under the skin, which would not be good if we want to look young.
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BHT is cheap. Thepersonalformulator.com has it. Also for fat loss consider salicylic acid. I don't know for sure but suspect it could also do a number on your facial fat if you used it heavily for years. Back to the original topic, though, I found the products corresponding to the study posted and they are not cheap ( regular price is $50-$65 depending on the store). You'd be better off using taz and a Euro sunscreen for that price. Since when did drugstore stuff get so expensive? Here they've recently reduced the price. Probably nobody was buying at the original price. http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=218044&catid=13554
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But what's the active ingredient in the bioderma? Website doesn't say, at least that I could find.
Lately, I've been using Olay's spf15 moisurized all over my face, then putting neutrogena's zinc and titanium based spf50 sunscreen on parts of my face that have some sun damage blotchiness. Have had quite a few IPL and laser treatments on my face over the years--count me among one of the few (apparently!) fortunate clients of these technologies. But while some of the sun spots on my cheeks have faded, they've resisted erasure. So I put the strong stuff on them.
Hasn't there been a study or two indicating that prolonged use of sunscreen can reverse sun damage? I think that may be true of me. Haven't had any laser/IPL treatment for 3 years, and yet my complexion does look better--only use Retin A about 3 x a week now--been using it about 5 years. Also used alpha hydroxy 10 to 12% buffered every so often. I'm naturally very fair complexioned -- Fitzpatrick 2, I think. English ancestry.
Just an FYI . . .
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4beauty wrote:But what's the active ingredient in the bioderma? Website doesn't say, at least that I could find. The Max Cream ingredients are here, filters are bolded: WATER (AQUA), DICAPRYLYL CARBONATE, OCTOCRYLENE, METHYLENE BIS-BENZOTRIAZOLYL TETRAMETHYLBUTYLPHENOL (Tinosorb M), BUTYL METHOXYDIBENZOYLMETHANE (avobenzone), CYCLOMETHICONE, ALCOHOL DENAT., C20-22 ALKYL PHOSPHATE, BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE (Tinosorb S), PTFE, C20-22 ALCOHOLS, TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, ECTOIN, MANNITOL, XYLITOL, RHAMNOSE, FRUCTOOLIGOSACCHARIDES, LAMINARIA OCHROLEUCA EXTRACT, DECYL GLUCOSIDE, AMMONIUM ACRYLOYLDIMETHYLTAURATE/VP COPOLYMER, XANTHAN GUM, DISODIUM EDTA, SODIUM HYDROXIDE, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, CITRIC ACID, CAPRYLIC/CAPRIC TRIGLYCERIDE, PHENOXYETHANOL, METHYLPARABEN, PROPYLPARABEN, ETHYLPARABEN. Other formulations have similar actives but the inactives and quantities of actives might be different. At this link http://www.bioderma.com/en/nc/the-products/what-s-new/category/91.htmlClick on "more information" under each product description. Then click on "properties ingredients" on the new page that displays. Hasn't there been a study or two indicating that prolonged use of sunscreen can reverse sun damage? I think that may be true of me. Yes, it's partially reversible in both mice and people. one study on mice http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2778126one study on people http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7490363These were not great sunscreens, in fact compared to today's Euro standards they were junk. But they were still so protective compared to controls. Haven't had any laser/IPL treatment for 3 years, and yet my complexion does look better--only use Retin A about 3 x a week now--been using it about 5 years. Also used alpha hydroxy 10 to 12% buffered every so often. I'm naturally very fair complexioned -- Fitzpatrick 2, I think. English ancestry.All those things do help and give better results when used with sunscreen than sunscreen alone. The fairer and dryer you are, the more dramatic the results will be from the topicals. You will get much more product penetration and activity from a given application compared to somebody like me (olive Mediterranean, oily). But your tolerance will be lower, too.
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