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kosmeds wrote:
Sex hormone levels peak in the early 30s and thereafter there is a slow, steady decline. If you are not there yet, I don't think they will make you look much younger. But if you are over the "hill", then yes.
Ovariectomized rats are much more sensitive to photodamage than intact rats. Hyaluronic acid production declines with decreasing estrogens, etc., it's depressing. Estrogens are protective.
D you think it's reasonable to extrapolate from rats to humans in this context? If so, have I read you right - that you think that now I'm over the "hill", taking the Pill could be helping me look younger?
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kosmeds wrote:RM, you'll need one of the SPF 50+/PPD 30+ Euro formulations (Bioderma Photoderm or La Roche Posay Anthelios) for the beach, and you'll have to reapply every 2 hours and use a wide-brimmed visor and sunglasses. But you can still go now and then. In mice, the skin can begin to repair itself once the onslaught of UV is stopped. In humans, this is true to some extent but one gets more and greater repair if peels, rx retinoids, and good antioxidants are also used. Also this might be helpful. There is a lot they can do for not much $, if you can spare the time to hide while you heal. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16190061/Color-Atlas-of-Chemical-PeelsYou have a lot of options and they aren't going to be that expensive, in fact they are downright cheap compared to the cut-and-stitch type surgery. Thanks kosmeds.... I guess I was wondering about the intensity of the sun (here in the northeast) at 6:00PM. Of course, I would still wear sunblock but I would think the intensity of the UVA/UVB would be less. I could also consider just wearing a swim shirt with a turtleneck (if I can find one) but that does decrease the pleasure of feeling the water against my skin (and you really can't wear a hat while swimming). Then again, my love of swimming is what got me into this sun damaged situation. Everything is affected: arms, legs, back....in addition to face, neck, chest. What the hell was I thinking? Maybe I'll wait until 7:00PM... Also, I have read that with increasing age the ability of the skin to repair itself lessens....which is why hormonal therapy might help to preserve the state of my skin past menopause (which is looming despite still getting pretty regular periods). Once I see the derm, I will make an action plan including some of the peels you have mentioned. Thanks.
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KM, which of the European formulations is best for skin that is susceptible to sebaceous hyperplasia? I've been using the Anthelios SX that I bought from my derm but I've had an onslaught of SHs since I began using it that I had finally gotten under control. The only time I'm in the sun is driving to work and home, plus casual sun contact. But, we are going to CA in two weeks and I will have more sun contact than normal. I have bought sun protective clothing and 5" brim hats, but need some sunblock. Thanks!
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Re: the Pill. I have never once been on it. I was never in a serious long term relationship in my 20's and 30's to warrant it. I had relationships but they were not serious nor lengthy. My first serious relationship began when I was 41 and lasted for 4.5 years. We just used other forms of birth control. I have developed worse periods after 40 and my doc suggested a low dose BCP but I decided not to do it. I figured it wasn't worth the hassle for 2 days a month of discomfort. Maybe I should have?
And I have to read up on HRT. I know it's controversial. Aren't there more natural ways of hormone replacement (I'm thinking of that book "The Wisdom of Menopause" by Christiane Northrup, I think she has some more organic suggestions).
Bottom line for me: Acceptance. This is where I'm at, this is the state of my skin and I may be able to improve it a bit but I have to be realistic. My genetics are not in my favor and I loved, loved, loved outdoor swimming. I have to try to remember and appreciate the fun I had doing it. I could be dead tomorrow. Would I have been happy staying indoors all the time like my sister? Probably not. At this point, I wish I had stayed indoors but the reality is - I did not.
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I'm responding to several people in this post.
[you think that now I'm over the "hill", taking the Pill could be helping me look younger?[/quote]
I didn't say I thought you were over the hill. I wrote that there is a peak and after a certain age there is decline. I can't advise you, this is a deeply personal issue. I only wrote that I didn't think it would be helpful prior to the peak.
[you think it's reasonable to extrapolate from rats to humans in this context?]
Yes.
[KM, which of the European formulations is best for skin that is susceptible to sebaceous hyperplasia?]
I think most formulations of LRP are far too greasy and yes, they break me out, too. I use the 50+UVB/24UVA spray formulation of LRP, it's available at Pharmazon.gr. Shipping is reasonable.
[I guess I was wondering about the intensity of the sun (here in the northeast) at 6:00PM. ]
It depends not only on time of day and latitude but also on the altitude, cloud cover, and the time of year. I have a number of charts and graphs in my (free) book that have details. UVA does not vary nearly as much as UVB with latitude, time of year, and time of day as UVB does. But near sunset of course there is much less. In my part of the country, at this time that is currently around 8 PM.
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Thanks kosmeds...you sent me the (free) book so I'll check it out.
I did go to the beach a few times last summer and not until after 5:30PM. I would sit in the shade (yes, there is shade at this ocean beach!) with long sleeved shirt/pants/hat until about 6PM or 6:30PM and then I would swim, with sunscreen. I think I will wait until even later this year.
As far as pond swimming, I think I'll be one of these sunset swimmers from now on.
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You put the spray on your face, KM? (Sorry for hijacking this thread away from original subject)
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Amber wrote:you think that now I'm over the "hill", taking the Pill could be helping me look younger? kosmeds wrote:I didn't say I thought you were over the hill. I wrote that there is a peak and after a certain age there is decline. I can't advise you, this is a deeply personal issue. I only wrote that I didn't think it would be helpful prior to the peak. I'm sorry kosmeds if you thought I was implying that you were being cheeky. I didn't think you were, nor would I mind if you were. I meant over the hill in the same context you meant - of sex hormone levels For which I am clearly over the "hill" - you said they peak in the early 30s. And I wasn't asking for advice on such a tricky issue - I really have to take the Pill for my endometriosis, it's just that I have long wondered if it affected ageing and where better to find out than here? I'd take the Pill even if it made me look older. (But of course I'm glad it doesn't.) Your view that it could well be helpful in terms of ageing now is very interesting, and much valued.
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[I have long wondered if it affected ageing and where better to find out than here?] Medical journals. This paper provides a decent overview: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2685269/But if you've sustained significant sun damage, don't expect miracles. It doesn't work well on sun damaged skin. Hormone replacement therapy works better on protected skin. Long-term sun damage hinders the ability of estrogens to stimulate collagen production, among other things. (Arch Dermatol. 2008 Sep;144(9):1129-40.) If you have damage, work with your derm/PS to remove it, and if it's going to make a significant change you can expect significant down time while you are healing. [You put the spray on your face, KM?] Yes, on my face, neck, hands, and arms for routine daily exposure.
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Also I was reading some papers recently in my unfavorite journal (Journal of Cosmetic Dermatology 2007 6:143). Zoe Draelos wrote an editorial titled Perceptions of beauty. It's about humans being hard-wired to find beauty in the estrogen-rich face. I wish I could reproduce it here in its entirety but here are some choice quotes:
"Current concerns regarding the accelerated growth of
breast cancer and the increased incidence of cardiac
disease among women taking hormone replacement are
definitely well founded, but preserving self-esteem through
the maintenance of appearance is equally important from
a mental health standpoint."
"Estrogen is necessary for women to retain their verbal
abilities, IQ, scalp hair, and emotional stability. It now
appears that estrogen is necessary for women to retain
their beauty. This is a tremendous worldwide opportunity
for cosmetic dermatology and industry researchers.
An understanding of estrogen may be the key to our
perceptions of beauty"
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Crap. My doctor WILL NOT give me estrogen or hormone therapy. (History of smoking--hate to admit but true.)
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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rm1961 you probably already know about those all-body SPF 50 swimsuits? I can't remember if they come with a hood, but still you would need waterproof mega-SPF for hands, feet, face, probably neck too. OK let me try to find it... http://store.sunprotectiveclothing.com/canada/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=97 (cute model) <-- I don't know about this store, but this is what's coming up.. also the term "Sharia swimsuit".. chec for Muslim swimsuit- those ones have the hood if this is something of interest. Also big thanks to kosmeds, great info even if I'm not grokking it 100%
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m130 wrote:Also big thanks to kosmeds, great info even if I'm not grokking it 100% That's pretty common. Some researchers are working on ways to activate the estrogen receptors in the skin without using actual estrogens so as to reap some of the looks benefits without the risks. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17653955
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Nice (from that link) "Topical estrogen application is highly effective and safe if used by a dermatologist with expertise in endocrinology." I saw all kinds of estrogen creams at Pharmaca today and was thinking about this thread.
Huh, I wonder when one should start with this. Like, when perimenopause starts? Maybe it would be good to monitor hormones, like get a baseline in the 30's, then keep an eye out every 5 years or more often as time goes on. This would require a nice doctor, though.
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m130 wrote:Huh, I wonder when one should start with this. Like, when perimenopause starts? Maybe it would be good to monitor hormones, like get a baseline in the 30's, then keep an eye out every 5 years or more often as time goes on. This would require a nice doctor, though. When I was in my 20s, long before I read my first paper, I had read about this very thing in Vogue or Allure or something like that--getting a baseline established in the early 30s and maintaining that level with supplemental estrogens with age. But whenever I asked doctors about it, they said they had never heard of it. I think that most of them would be afraid to try it due to liability issues. But some doctors are now specializing in anti-aging. You might have better luck with these people than with derms. I don't think topical estrogens or progesterones on the face are a huge risk. The amount that is systemically absorbed would be very small compared to typical HRT doses. Also there are some soy topicals as alternatives, but there are some tech details as to how they have to be formulated for the phytoestrogens to be available to the skin, and not all of the manufacturers will heed them. There was an article with details in one of the Cosmetics & Toiletries issues many years ago. I could look them up if anyone is interested.
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kk25 wrote:
you already look very young.
Try it! Your quest for eternal youth continues....
I have to say I took estrogen (only) for 12 years - no problems. We moved and my new GP said "no - it is dangerous". Everything has fallen to bits since I stopped. I believe I felt better mentally, looked very young for my age, had energy etc when I was on it. The only reason I stopped was due to GP medical advice/intervention. It does cause thickening of the uterus which can cause heavy bleeding. I wish I was still on it to be honest.
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kosmeds wrote:
W
I don't think topical estrogens or progesterones on the face are a huge risk. The amount that is systemically absorbed would be very small compared to typical HRT doses. Also there are some soy topicals as alternatives, but there are some tech details as to how they have to be formulated for the phytoestrogens to be available to the skin, and not all of the manufacturers will heed them. There was an article with details in one of the Cosmetics & Toiletries issues many years ago. I could look them up if anyone is interested.
Yes please Kosmed - can you look up the info? Thanks
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Larazelle wrote:Yes please Kosmed - can you look up the info? Thanks Looks like only genistein will penetrate, but it has to be in the aglycone form and encapsulated in liposomes. Otherwise it will just sit on the surface of the skin, which stills provide antioxidant activity but very little hormone receptor binding. Some papers, from the sellers of this form that reputedly works: http://www.mibellebiochemistry.com/publications/isoflavones.php
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kosmeds wrote:Looks like only genistein will penetrate, but it has to be in the aglycone form and encapsulated in liposomes. Otherwise it will just sit on the surface of the skin, which stills provide antioxidant activity but very little hormone receptor binding. Some papers, from the sellers of this form that reputedly works: http://www.mibellebiochemistry.com/publications/isoflavones.php Kosmed: I am not interested in Phytoestrogens - I'm talking about info regarding putting estrogen cream (estrace) on ones face - I guess genistein is some form of phyto?
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Larazelle wrote:I am not interested in Phytoestrogens - I'm talking about info regarding putting estrogen cream (estrace) on ones face - I guess genistein is some form of phyto? Sorry, I misunderstood. I posted on phytoestrogens. Estradiol is probably the safest estrogen to use as a topical. It's been used to fill out acne scars. One brand name is Estrasorb. In Europe, brand name Oestrogel is available. But this is the sort of thing that a pharmacist can compound for you with rx from your doctor. If you don't like greasy creams, you can get one made in an alcohol/glycol-based gel or liquid. G1-17-betaestradiol 0.01% is one concentration that has been shown to result in significant increases in skin thickness, dermal papillae, and fibroblasts. Some studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19450919http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18794456http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16797821http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15955089http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8876303http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8652490
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