|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
Larazelle wrote:
Cindy:
where are you located - maybe NYC - I know that it has a disproportionate amt of gorgeous young women (most of them aspiring actresses and models) versus straight men (yes there are a lot of gorgeous young men in NYC but they are mostly gay)
Lazarelle, not too sure about that. I had this exact coversation about gay vs straight men with a gay friend of mine and he was adamant that straight guys on par are better looking than gay men. His point was that terrific grooming or clothing doesn't make up for average or sub-par looks. I can't say I noticed a difference in gay vs straight, other than most of the gay men I knew were feminine, some very, and I can't see that being a feature most str8t women would go nuts over. IMHO of course. Again the issue here is that women have better options in North America. Ask any straight guy here and they will tell you that even chubby, homely girls can date men, even ones that look decent. while if you're a guy and you're below average or even average, you have zero options, unless you are rich or rank high up there on the social ladder. Roles have definitely been reversed. I also notice that most women above 40-50 are over-weight, often obese in North America, while their spouse is usally leaner or lean. Having lived in Europe - France and Eastern Europe, I can tell you that there, it's rare to find an obese girl, even chubby ones are hard to find, unless it's an 85 year old widow. There are specific reasons for this role reversal, but that's a topic for another forum.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 615
Points: 1,748
|
Denton wrote:
Lazarelle, not too sure about that. I had this exact coversation about gay vs straight men with a gay friend of mine and he was adamant that straight guys on par are better looking than gay men. His point was that terrific grooming or clothing doesn't make up for average or sub-par looks. I can't say I noticed a difference in gay vs straight, other than most of the gay men I knew were feminine, some very, and I can't see that being a feature most str8t women would go nuts over. IMHO of course.
Again the issue here is that women have better options in North America. Ask any straight guy here and they will tell you that even chubby, homely girls can date men, even ones that look decent. while if you're a guy and you're below average or even average, you have zero options, unless you are rich or rank high up there on the social ladder. Roles have definitely been reversed. I also notice that most women above 40-50 are over-weight, often obese in North America, while their spouse is usally leaner or lean. Having lived in Europe - France and Eastern Europe, I can tell you that there, it's rare to find an obese girl, even chubby ones are hard to find, unless it's an 85 year old widow.
There are specific reasons for this role reversal, but that's a topic for another forum.
I don't think it can be all or nothing thinking. Because I am a single woman who has been told I am attractive and I am not meeting good looking men who are good guys. All we are doing is sharing our personal experiences and I think that as a result we think this always happens. I guess you or I can't really lump everyone in to what you've experienced or what I've experienced and say this is "the one truth." Because clearly we are describing the opposite experience and yet it's both true in that this is what we've witnessed personally.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 615
Points: 1,748
|
Denton wrote:
I hang out in very reputable bars. Why would I need to work on my social skills ? I wasn't the offender here. The issue here isn't me, but the fact women today in North America have the options. Even the ones that are below average expect to date guys that are much more attractive than they are.
I think he means that you could've told her that you didn't want her to keep touching you. I understand where you're coming from. A month ago a guy who I was not attracted to would not stop touching me and it was grossing me out. Yes he was the offender yet I didn't tell him to back off because I didn't want to be rude. But I did myself a disservice and didn't treat myself with respect. I learned an important lesson and if this happens again I will tell the guy to back off. Though of course there are more polite ways to say it while still getting the same message across.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 615
Points: 1,748
|
robh1540 wrote:Representing from across the pond.
I defiantly agree with you on the whole cocky thing. I don't think it is genuine cockiness however but more used as a tactic to pull. Remember a lot of the guys in the UK are going out to pull but have no real interest in a relationship at all; therefore when they do the whole cocky thing it is a way of attracting the right sort of girl. Also, ugly guys tend to be even cockier in how they come across in the belief that if they tell you how hot they are you might just believe it.
About the height thing I am not so sure, you may have just been unlucky in terms of short men but out of my group of friends I am the shortest and I am 6 foot. If you really like your men tall then you should have hopped across the channel to Holland; they are on average the tallest in the world.
Finally I think you were unlucky in terms of the countries you went to; both the UK and Greece aren't exactly famous for producing good looking men. As you say the average English guy tends to look a little inbred and most of the Greeks I have met tend to have fairly large noses. Dutch guys tend to be pretty good looking as do Croatians and Spanish.
I am shocked that at 6 feet you are the shortest of your friends. I live in New Jersey and recently there was a "tall man" speed dating and what qualified as tall was 5' 10". When I went to a bar a month or so ago there were many men around 5' 5". I am Dutch and Irish so maybe I should check out these countries. I did go to Ireland 10 years ago and do recall there being lots of cute guys.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 2,148
Points: 7,618
|
Denton wrote:Sorry, but where I live and spend time - East Coast of USA and Canada, it's the total opposite. Even average girls will date men that are better looking than them. I have women who are borderline obese approaching me- often aggresively, while a borderline obese male would never even approach a below-average female.
I think you had a bad speed date, because the trend( imho) is definitely the opposite of what you describe. All the straight males will agree with me here.
Denton, Denton Denton... you are starting to sound a bit like e. I know out here, most of the good looking men are gay, and the straight men (regardless of their appearance) have girlfriends. I think it depends on the person, personality and desperation level. That girl in the bar sounds very desperate, resorting to do whatever sexually to be with a guy for a couple of hours. Not attractive.
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
|
|
Rank: Newbie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/27/2009
Posts: 16
Points: 48
|
Funny enough, I found the opposite. I'm told I'm v. attractive, but lived in NYC and never in the entire time found a guy attractive - ended up dating a spanish guy, followed by an Irish doctor for 3 years. For me it's really easy to find attractive guys in the US yes - but so hard to find the guy with the personality that makes me fall for them. There's a certain humour, witticism that guys here in London have (from all over Europe), which is a huge part of the appeal. The personality and a confident manner is the killer for me - if he is good-looking all the better but not a necessity. I met many good-lucking guys in NY - I was even asked out by an A&F model, and I must admit I was hugely flattered - but on dates I was dying of boredom. Same around my office here in London - US company - most of the times the European guys are the office studs, mostly based on great personality and some looks too. US guys are goodlooking and 'sweet' but doesn't stir up the same attractice. Also, there is gorgeous Dutch guy, but although I found him attractive at first - he doesn't have the vibrant personality of some of the other guys. Cultural thing methinks! Also, I'm 5'9 and haven't noticed a problem with smaller guys.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
cindy79 wrote:
I don't think it can be all or nothing thinking. Because I am a single woman who has been told I am attractive and I am not meeting good looking men who are good guys. All we are doing is sharing our personal experiences and I think that as a result we think this always happens. I guess you or I can't really lump everyone in to what you've experienced or what I've experienced and say this is "the one truth." Because clearly we are describing the opposite experience and yet it's both true in that this is what we've witnessed personally.
I realize that, but your personal experience is one tiny area of a part of the USA, while mine ecompasses the largest city in two countries, as well as having lived in Europe.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
cindy79 wrote:
I think he means that you could've told her that you didn't want her to keep touching you. I understand where you're coming from. A month ago a guy who I was not attracted to would not stop touching me and it was grossing me out. Yes he was the offender yet I didn't tell him to back off because I didn't want to be rude. But I did myself a disservice and didn't treat myself with respect. I learned an important lesson and if this happens again I will tell the guy to back off. Though of course there are more polite ways to say it while still getting the same message across.
I realize that, but not sure what that has to do with social skills. I wasn't offended by her actions, it just further proved my point that women today have better options than guys.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
barbiegirl wrote:
Denton, Denton Denton... you are starting to sound a bit like e. I know out here, most of the good looking men are gay, and the straight men (regardless of their appearance) have girlfriends. I think it depends on the person, personality and desperation level. That girl in the bar sounds very desperate, resorting to do whatever sexually to be with a guy for a couple of hours. Not attractive.
Some of what E says is true. I think you're reporting what you see in BC, which isn't reflective of how things are in bigger cities like Toronto and New York city, I can promise you that. Gay men here all have plenty of partners. I don't know a lonely gay guy. I suppose they are out there, but where I work there are plenty of gay men and they're always going on and on about their social life. I know decent looking guys in NY and Toronto that are single. The experience I had above has happened to me several times. It's not a one-shot experience and a grand conclusion. If you're an average guy or below average, forget about the dating game. Even chubby women date in Toronto. I even noticed within my own family that the men are all better looking than the women. they're also leaner, more successful and look younger. The women- who all came from Europe bone skiny at one time, are all either obese or borderline obese. My mother is a wonderful person, but I have even mentioned to her that she should take better care of herself, and she simply doesn't care. this would not be the case had my family stayed in the old country.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 United States: 30.6%
# 2 Mexico: 24.2%
# 3 United Kingdom: 23%
# 4 Slovakia: 22.4%
# 5 Greece: 21.9%
# 6 Australia: 21.7%
# 7 New Zealand: 20.9%
# 8 Hungary: 18.8%
# 9 Luxembourg: 18.4%
# 10 Czech Republic: 14.8%
# 11 Canada: 14.3%
# 12 Spain: 13.1%
# 13 Ireland: 13%
# 14 Germany: 12.9%
= 15 Portugal: 12.8%
= 15 Finland: 12.8%
# 17 Iceland: 12.4%
# 18 Turkey: 12%
# 19 Belgium: 11.7%
# 20 Netherlands: 10%
# 21 Sweden: 9.7%
# 22 Denmark: 9.5%
# 23 France: 9.4%
# 24 Austria: 9.1%
# 25 Italy: 8.5%
# 26 Norway: 8.3%
# 27 Switzerland: 7.7%
= 28 Japan: 3.2%
= 28 Korea, South: 3.2%
In addition, note that in the USA women are more likely to be obese than men. statistics don't lie.
|
|
Rank: Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/5/2009
Posts: 523
Points: 1,775
Location: USA
|
I think men in this country look worse than the women due to baldness. I'm 37 and all the guys my age look bald and bloated, while the women generally look as good as or better than they did in high school. As an aside, have you ever noticed how gay men seem to have fuller heads of hair than straight ones? Are they gay guys getting hair transplants or something? I don't get it.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 2,148
Points: 7,618
|
Denton wrote:
Some of what E says is true. I think you're reporting what you see in BC, which isn't reflective of how things are in bigger cities like Toronto and New York city, I can promise you that. Gay men here all have plenty of partners. I don't know a lonely gay guy. I suppose they are out there, but where I work there are plenty of gay men and they're always going on and on about their social life. I know decent looking guys in NY and Toronto that are single.
The experience I had above has happened to me several times. It's not a one-shot experience and a grand conclusion.
If you're an average guy or below average, forget about the dating game. Even chubby women date in Toronto. I even noticed within my own family that the men are all better looking than the women. they're also leaner, more successful and look younger. The women- who all came from Europe bone skiny
at one time, are all either obese or borderline obese. My mother is a wonderful person, but I have even mentioned to her that she should take
better care of herself, and she simply doesn't care. this would not be the case had my family stayed in old country.
Greater Vancouver (and Calgary, where I grew up) are hardly small cities (3rd and 5th largest metropolitan cities in Canada, in fact). I think people see what they are looking for. Men don't need to look like Patrick Dempsey, George Clooney or Julian McMahon in order to get dates. I would be willing to bet (based on my personal experiences) that there are more people who would rank around average in looks in relationships than above average looking people. Most of the single people I know (male or female) are very attractive, intelligent and successful, but can never get a date. In my group of friends, the least attractive people (again, male or female) are the ones who always are in relationships or are married, and the best looking ones are always single. Maybe the less attractive people are viewed as being less intimidating for those with a low self esteem? I know I prefer to be approached by men, not the other way around, so maybe more men are only willing to hit on a girl who is less attractive therefore, in theory less likely to say no?
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 2,148
Points: 7,618
|
Talullah wrote:I think men in this country look worse than the women due to baldness. I'm 37 and all the guys my age look bald and bloated, while the women generally look as good as or better than they did in high school. As an aside, have you ever noticed how gay men seem to have fuller heads of hair than straight ones? Are they gay guys getting hair transplants or something? I don't get it. I personally don't think baldness is a horrible thing if the guy keeps his hair short. A colleague of mine (who also happens to be quite good looking) is very much attracted to bald men. Not a huge deal.
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 1,071
Points: 3,270
Location: On earth
|
barbiegirl wrote:
Greater Vancouver (and Calgary, where I grew up) are hardly small cities (3rd and 5th largest metropolitan cities in Canada, in fact). I think people see what they are looking for. Men don't need to look like Patrick Dempsey, George Clooney or Julian McMahon in order to get dates. I would be willing to bet (based on my personal experiences) that there are more people who would rank around average in looks in relationships than above average looking people. Most of the single people I know (male or female) are very attractive, intelligent and successful, but can never get a date. In my group of friends, the least attractive people (again, male or female) are the ones who always are in relationships or are married, and the best looking ones are always single.
Maybe the less attractive people are viewed as being less intimidating for those with a low self esteem? I know I prefer to be approached by men, not the other way around, so maybe more men are only willing to hit on a girl who is less attractive therefore, in theory less likely to say no?
Could be. Calgary still has the old world values that the immigrants from there brought over with them. But it's not a city I would use to guage trends. I like the west coast in many ways more than the east coast of Canada, because it's remained true to it's roots. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, it's just that I see the least attractive you describe above as being more within the female sex, than amongst males. the males I know that are avarage, unless there is a religous connection - Jewish, Sikh, Muslim, don't have a lot of dating options.I am not including rich or celebrities in this equation. I guess we all see what is around us.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/19/2009
Posts: 2,513
Points: -2,057
|
ITT: Denton owns barbiegirl the man-hater.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/27/2008
Posts: 2,148
Points: 7,618
|
yatterman1 wrote:ITT: Denton owns barbiegirl the man-hater. a) I wasn't owned b) I'm not a man hater c) grow up
"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/19/2009
Posts: 2,513
Points: -2,057
|
I said it before and I will say it again:
male models and super rich men get hot girls
hot guys get average looking girls
average guys get fat ugly women
ugly men get NOTHING
As for balding...EVERY bald/badly balding guy I personally know WELL in my age range (as in 100 percent) fall into 1 of three categories:
1) guys who used to get girls then went bald and stopped getting girls completely
2) guys who have never had a girlfriend to begin with
3) guysw who get a girlfriend once in a blue moon...but shes ALWAYS obese and ends up dumping HIM after a few months then he's single for YEARS before getting anything again
I do not personally know (as in know well) any bald or badly balding men in my age range that are remotely successful with women. And I mean ZERO. And I know a lot of people.
Refer back to my story about my friend's brother who used to get cute girls then got NOTHING after going bald.
Going bald takes like....all your attractiveness points away. It's losing a part of you that is supposed to be there. Functional purposes aside (only going by aesthetics) not having hair is like not having eyes or a nose. In fact I would rather lose the latter of the two than my hair.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/19/2009
Posts: 2,513
Points: -2,057
|
As for speed dating...I've been to speed dating events before. In all that I went to the male to female ratio ranged from 2 (males) to 1 (female) to 4 (males) to 1 (female). The last one I went to was when I was back in Jersey and it had like 25 males and 10 females.
The way it worked at the ones I went to was you would talk to each member of the opposite sex for a certain amount of minutes and then at the end you wrote down on this paper which ones you were interested in and it would match you up with someone if that other person picked you.
Each time I picked EVERY female and each time I got 0 matches.
And from what I saw generally speaking most members of both sexes were below average at these events. The women were almost all fat and the men were mostly at least a little ugly.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/22/2008
Posts: 1,235
Points: 3,720
Location: Montreal
|
Is it possible that there is little link between being involuntarily single and appearance?
May it also be possible that those who are single have more stringent/difficult criteria for selecting a mate and if we are saying that both above average male and females are disproportionally single it is because they are expecting an above average mate (which by definition is in significantly more limited supply).
For instance if a woman here wants a man to be tall or above average height than that criteria alone will declassify a significant portion of the Canadian population especially in the eastern portion where the average is 5'8". Also generally speaking Irish & French (celtic) as well as latin (italian spanish ect.) origin folks are well below the average height of those of Saxonian and Germanic origin. However calorie rich diets lead to taller (and more obese) populations for all (maybe why US folks a re getting taller). Despite high calorie Northern europeans are still the tallest in the world (with the exception of a few african tribes)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 695
Points: 2,127
|
barbiegirl wrote:
Greater Vancouver (and Calgary, where I grew up) are hardly small cities (3rd and 5th largest metropolitan cities in Canada, in fact). I think people see what they are looking for. Men don't need to look like Patrick Dempsey, George Clooney or Julian McMahon in order to get dates. I would be willing to bet (based on my personal experiences) that there are more people who would rank around average in looks in relationships than above average looking people. Most of the single people I know (male or female) are very attractive, intelligent and successful, but can never get a date. In my group of friends, the least attractive people (again, male or female) are the ones who always are in relationships or are married, and the best looking ones are always single.
Maybe the less attractive people are viewed as being less intimidating for those with a low self esteem? I know I prefer to be approached by men, not the other way around, so maybe more men are only willing to hit on a girl who is less attractive therefore, in theory less likely to say no?
What a great post. I totally agree. I was just at the hairdressers and read a new article in this month's Marie Claire on this very topic. A great quote (parapharsing here), about how many in the 20-30 something generation are still living in that "high school" mentality where everybody is either spectacular or disgusting. No middle ground. Well, there IS a middle ground, and it is a total cop out for anybody to say they can't find someone due to their looks, unless disfigured or something. If one is only looking for women in bars, well, yeah, of course you may not get the dates because the ONLY way to size someone up there is by looks alone. But taken out of that environment, most people look at the whole picture, and can find someone attractive even if their face is not conventionally so. I'm talking normal people here. Not Young Hollywood. Young Hollywood appears to be an extension of HS. Doesn't count. I know of so many men who are not what one would consider that great looking, and they good looking wives/gfs, and it is not money related. My brother, bald and 42, has an adorable girlfriend now and she works in his same business so they met that way. Her salary is comparable to his. But, they both hike and ski and have lots in common and I tell ya, she's cute, with a cute figure too. He's in great shape and is very outdoorsy, but yeah he's as bald as they get. We've set some of our single guy friends up (in the military we've always had more guy friends than gal), with some of my girlfriends over the years, and in ALL the cases, the guy asked "is she cute, hot, etc?" In ALL the cases the girls did NOT ask that of the guy. They asked what he was like, etc, and if he had a sense of humor, etc, etc. Also, when it came down to it none of the outcomes had anything to do with looks, even if the guys or girls were not that great looking.
 "Annie Bean Sprout"
|
|
|
Guest |
