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Just keep in mind that the ADA was the same organization that approved of serving up hot dogs and other crap in public schools. They have always been 'on the side' of the processed food industry. It would NOT be the organization I would give the 'last word'--that's for sure. Adelle D-a-v-i-s was the VISIONARY in nutrition. She told it all and yes--agri-business stuff has depleted soil. I don't want to give the impression I actually have healthy eating habits because, these days, I don't (life disrupted from stress from my building, but, ya, I definitely would say most agribusiness soil has been depleted of many trace minerals and supplements would be needed. kosmeds wrote:It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that the best nutrition- based strategy for promoting optimal health and reducing the risk of chronic disease is to wisely choose a wide variety of foods. Their latest statement on supplementation is here: http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8409Soil depletion and long transit times from field to plate have not been shown to be appreciable health hazards. But older people do benefit from B12 supplementation as they lack sufficient intrinsic factor. People who have had bariatric surgery have to supplement. I do supplement for D because I don't want to damage my skin to get enough of it. But I'm very skeptical about taking a pill for anything that can easily be obtained from the right food choices. I guess it's more difficult for people who have an aversion to the produce section, which is admittedly most people.
Can hardly walk. Need hip replacement.
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MissJ wrote:Just keep in mind that the ADA was the same organization that approved of serving up hot dogs and other crap in public schools. They have always been 'on the side' of the processed food industry.
It would NOT be the organization I would give the 'last word'--that's for sure. Adelle D-a-v-i-s was the VISIONARY in nutrition. She told it all and yes--agri-business stuff has depleted soil.
I don't want to give the impression I actually have healthy eating habits because, these days, I don't (life disrupted from stress from my building, but, ya, I definitely would say most agribusiness soil has been depleted of many trace minerals and supplements would be needed.
Exactly! I am a nutritionist and I disagree with a lot of what the CDA/ADA have to say as well as the CFG. It is more marketing and corporate (such as good old Pepsi, Coca Cola, and the Dairy Association...clearly all companies looking out for our best health interests) sponsorships than actual solid nutritional science. Basically they are trying to prevent serious nutrient deficiencies, where I have a optimal nutrition approach instead. Sure, 60mg of vitamin C per day will prevent scurvy; however it is not enough for most people to be truly healthy. Food grown conventionally now is significantly depleted of essential minerals as well as being lower in vitamins and other beneficial phytonutrients. That combined with food processing; which removes whatever essential minerals are left and leaves toxic minerals behind, such as cadmium. Again, in theory, one SHOULD be able to get everything they need from food, however the reality is that is not the case anymore.
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Even commercial organic produce is not that great and the organic farm I rent from still does not have enough nutrients in the soil. The place is depleted. The only time I had a great organic garden was when I lived on a horse place with gads of horse manure and bunch of other compost piles; like of vegetable matter, wood ash piles and one with just egg shells and bone meal. I don't think the commercial organic farms have a lot of animal manure, blood meal, ground up bones and big wood ash piles. 'organic' is a whole lot more than just not using pesticides and super phosphates.
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You can have some of my horse poo, MissJ. I use tons of it for my garden and grow huge veges.Chicken manure is supposed to be good too but it concerns me as to what the chickens are fed as often they are given hormones to make them grow quickly. How is your wrist BTW? Any better?
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New Zealand is probably one of BEST PLACES in WORLD for organic food with animal manure.
Wrist is a little less bad but I just had my only molar pulled and I'm bummed. Dental work is going to eat into my PS budget big time unless I go to someplace like Costa Rica (or back to Hungary) for dental stuff. I'm now worried about my jaw bone on left side dissolving due to no molars in the mandible there now.
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barbiegirl wrote:
Exactly! I am a nutritionist and I disagree with a lot of what the CDA/ADA have to say as well as the CFG.
But the DRIs come from recommendations from the National Academy of Sciences, which is a separate entity, I've read most of the books describing the hows and whys of their recommendations at the National Academies Press site (they are free). Anyway it's easy to see what is and isn't dubious by seeing recommendations in other parts of the world. They are generally close with some notable exceptions. Quote:Again, in theory, one SHOULD be able to get everything they need from food, however the reality is that is not the case anymore. Do you have any references for that? I don't mean about soil depletion, nutrient losses on storage, and variations in macronutrient and phytochemicals (I've read many papers varying among specifics with both conventional and "organic" produce as well as the changes in plasma levels that they produce on consumption (pretty much nil). I mean showing that people (let's be specific and restrict to the USA) achieving adequate reaches of all RDAs without supplementation or preexisting conditions are still malnourished. I think that might be the case for vitamin D (undetectable by time of use in some poorly packaged fortified foods) and B12, for which I have previously made exceptions. But not for the rest. And yes I agree our current vitamin C rec is scandalously low, that's another one that I exceed by about an order of magnitude or more from food alone. Regarding multi use, in the Multivitamin Use and Risk of Cancer and Cardiovascular Disease in the Women’s Health Initiative Cohorts (Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(3):294-304) "Multivariateadjusted analyses revealed no association of multivitamin use with risk of cancer CVD or mortality." In other studies, green leaves provide more protection than multivitamins. There's a plethora of studies showing the benefits from increased fruit and vegetable consumption, I doubt anyone would dispute it. But I don't believe there is a single study showing that these benefits are appreciable when the food is grown "organically." My method of making up for any losses due to malnourished growth media and days, weeks, or months post-harvest is simply to eat more of them rather than taking a pill. That's another area where I feel government recs are way too low--servings of fruit and vegetables. Aside from that, no pill or relatively small number of specific micronutrients is going to be able to mimic the natural array of protective phytochemicals with their synergisms present in the foods themselves, grown under ideal conditions or otherwise.
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kosmeds wrote:
Do you have any references for that? I don't mean about soil depletion, nutrient losses on storage, and variations in macronutrient and phytochemicals (I've read many papers varying among specifics with both conventional and "organic" produce as well as the changes in plasma levels that they produce on consumption (pretty much nil). I mean showing that people (let's be specific and restrict to the USA) achieving adequate reaches of all RDAs without supplementation or preexisting conditions are still malnourished. I think that might be the case for vitamin D (undetectable by time of use in some poorly packaged fortified foods) and B12, for which I have previously made exceptions. But not for the rest.
And yes I agree our current vitamin C rec is scandalously low, that's another one that I exceed by about an order of magnitude or more from food alone.
Regarding multi use, in the Multivitamin Use and Risk of Cancer and Cardiovascular Disease in the Women’s Health Initiative Cohorts (Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(3):294-304)
"Multivariateadjusted analyses revealed no association of multivitamin use with risk of cancer CVD or mortality."
In other studies, green leaves provide more protection than multivitamins.
There's a plethora of studies showing the benefits from increased fruit and vegetable consumption, I doubt anyone would dispute it. But I don't believe there is a single study showing that these benefits are appreciable when the food is grown "organically."
My method of making up for any losses due to malnourished growth media and days, weeks, or months post-harvest is simply to eat more of them rather than taking a pill. That's another area where I feel government recs are way too low--servings of fruit and vegetables.
Aside from that, no pill or relatively small number of specific micronutrients is going to be able to mimic the natural array of protective phytochemicals with their synergisms present in the foods themselves, grown under ideal conditions or otherwise.
Plenty of people reach the RDA/AI of most nutrients using food alone (albeit fortified food), however that does NOT mean their intake is at the optimal level for them. Subclinical deficiency is very common, particularly with vit C, D, E, Mg, Fe, Cr and Zn. I know for me, I cannot get enough Mg, Fe or vit E through diet alone for my specific health conditions. My sister has IBD and requires multiple liquid supplements and green drinks a day to stay healthy as she cannot absorb enough micronutrients from food. A person can only eat, digest and assimilate so much food (which is another key point, they may be ingesting x amount of any given nutrient, but they might not be digesting, absorbing and utilizing it properly.) No one is disputing with you that whole foods are better; you are getting all the components of the plant. However, that being said, it is not always possible not realistic and supplements are necessary for many people; especially for those with health issues (which applies to most of us.) I for one would be dead without them, as likly would my sister. I am not sure why you are so threatened by other people using supplements to be healthy. People need to do whatever works for them to be healthy... the road to health is not a highway but a personal path you need to create for yourself. You really are very argumentative for a newbie.
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Agree - the road to health is a personal path- not a highway. We do what we feel right for ourselves given the knowledge that is freely available
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I know I started the vitamin and supplement 'thing' in the late 70's. That was BEFORE 'official' organizations recognized this stuff at all. My main 'guru' was Maggie Lettvin who was the wife of a genius institute professor at MIT. She did a lot of research on her own (her inspiration was Adelle D-a-v-i-s.) and led an exercise class and nutrition coaching at MIT. She also was in Channel 2 which is educational channel around here.
We all got the vitamin supplements at a place called "Lee Nutrition" which was next to MIT. (It is now "Puritan's Pride" because Mr. Lee died and it was sold.).
The main 'breakfast' drink was really DISGUSTING as it had liver powder, cod liver oil, nutritional yeast, dolomite, lecithin, and a bunch of other ground up vitamins and minerals in it. But it was really nutritious. Thing was though was a 'support group' was needed to down the stuff as it was that disgusting and I stopped drinking it after leaving MIT. Sometimes I make a 'smoothy' with protein powder, lecithin, dolomite (or ground up bone pills) and a bunch of ground up nutrients but can't take the liver powder, yeast and cod liver oil anymore.
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MissJ wrote:
The main 'breakfast' drink was really DISGUSTING as it had liver powder, cod liver oil, nutritional yeast, dolomite, lecithin, and a bunch of other ground up vitamins and minerals in it. But it was really nutritious. Thing was though was a 'support group' was needed to down the stuff as it was that disgusting and I stopped drinking it after leaving MIT. Sometimes I make a 'smoothy' with protein powder, lecithin, dolomite (or ground up bone pills) and a bunch of ground up nutrients but can't take the liver powder, yeast and cod liver oil anymore.
Yikes, sounds like a sick shake to try to choke down. And I thought my health shake was bad with all my various hormone balancing additions, but now it doesn't sound so bad after all. :P
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I can't drink it anymore.
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barbiegirl wrote:
I am not sure why you are so threatened by other people using supplements to be healthy. People need to do whatever works for them to be healthy... the road to health is not a highway but a personal path you need to create for yourself. You really are very argumentative for a newbie.
It's clearly you who feel threatened by having someone disagree with you. I am not at all threatened, I have the U.S. National Library of Medicine behind me. I support my position with credible sources, which is something I've been doing for two decades now. You, however, counter with anecdotes and "fluff." It would be more graceful to say, "I do not agree with you but am unable to provide substantial reasons why and have no further wish to discuss it." But accusing someone of being "threatened" just because they provide credible reasons to disagree is not becoming.
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kosmeds wrote:
It's clearly you who feel threatened by having someone disagree with you. I am not at all threatened, I have the U.S. National Library of Medicine behind me. I support my position with credible sources, which is something I've been doing for two decades now. You, however, counter with anecdotes and "fluff." It would be more graceful to say, "I do not agree with you but am unable to provide substantial reasons why and have no further wish to discuss it." But accusing someone of being "threatened" just because they provide credible reasons to disagree is not becoming.
kosmeds, I do not see in any of BG's posts, signs of her feeling threatened by someone else disagreeing with her. She is a nutritionist and has been offering help here on this board for quite some time. I do not see a real problem with having differing views on this topic. She has always shared her opinions, then let it go if others have disagreed.
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Sue wrote:
kosmeds, I do not see in any of BG's posts, signs of her feeling threatened by someone else disagreeing with her. She is a nutritionist and has been offering help here on this board for quite some time. I do not see a real problem with having differing views on this topic. She has always shared her opinions, then let it go if others have disagreed.
Thanks Sue. I am hardly threatened by her; she does what works for her and that is great. However, it won't work for everyone, guaranteed. Medical/Nutrition Associations really need to be taken with a (large) grain of salt. For example, some of the American Dietetic Association's sponsors are Coca Cola, Pepsi, Mars, The Dairy Association, SoyJoy and pharmaceutical companies. Hardly the financial sponsorship of companies promoting optimal health. Large corpoations and associations typically do not want people to be healthy. There is no profit in health, after all.
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Ya, the ADA is crap. They were the ones that promoted hot dogs and french fries in public school cafeterias. They suck but they WON in the State House in Boston many years ago. I testified against them in a hearing for a new law they wanted to pass (they WON though). The law they got passed was to FORBID people working in health food stores or non ADA members from giving nutrition advice.
At MIT, I wanted to major in nutrition. BUT, it was full of pre-meds and the nutrition department was funded by the SUGAR and REFINED CARBOHYDRATE industries. So, that seemed pretty futile.
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MissJ wrote:Ya, the ADA is crap. They were the ones that promoted hot dogs and french fries in public school cafeterias. They suck but they WON in the State House in Boston many years ago. I testified against them in a hearing for a new law they wanted to pass (they WON though). The law they got passed was to FORBID people working in health food stores or non ADA members from giving nutrition advice.
At MIT, I wanted to major in nutrition. BUT, it was full of pre-meds and the nutrition department was funded by the SUGAR and REFINED CARBOHYDRATE industries. So, that seemed pretty futile. Nothing frustrates me more than going into a conventional grocery store and seeing crap food like KD, Diet Pepsi and Becel bearing the "health check" symbol. Unfortunately the nutrition industry and the ADA and the DoC want a monopoly on giving nutritional advice. I personally know a lot of RHN's (Registered Holistic Nutritionist) who are a lot more competent in providing comprehensive optimal nutrition advice than a lot of RD's. Just my personal opinion though.
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Well glad to hear you are not an ADA or RD type. I have to start eating right again. I have all the info on nutrition and could eat better but often eat like a dumpster seagull.
By the way, what kind of Calcium supplement do you suggest? I've been using dolomite powder but probably should try something else.
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MissJ wrote:Well glad to hear you are not an ADA or RD type. I have to start eating right again. I have all the info on nutrition and could eat better but often eat like a dumpster seagull.
LOL. That was very funny, MissJ.
By the way, what kind of Calcium supplement do you suggest? I've been using dolomite powder but probably should try something else. I am also interested in this. I use the CVS brand that has Vitamin D in it, just checked the label and it's Calcium Carbonate. Hmmm...
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MissJ wrote:Well glad to hear you are not an ADA or RD type. I have to start eating right again. I have all the info on nutrition and could eat better but often eat like a dumpster seagull.
By the way, what kind of Calcium supplement do you suggest? I've been using dolomite powder but probably should try something else. No eating like a seagull Miss J! They're as bad as rats out here. For most people I recommend a liquid calcium citrate, magnesium and vitamin D supplement. calcium carbonate is ok if you have the stomach acidity necessary to ionize and absorb it and actually has more elemental calcium, unfortunately many people don't, so calcium citrate is better for them. A 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium is ok for most, but some people (especially if they find calcium supplements constipating or have muscle or menstrual cramps or pms) benefit from a 1:1 ratio. I am not a fan of dolomite powder because of heavy metal (lead and mercury, mainly) and other environmental poison contamination.
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seagulls and pigeons = rats with wings (IMO)
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