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Hi Rust
How's it going man? When's the next the update on your surgeries?

I know my name was not in the title of this thread, but.... As long as I have been here, the Celeb board has always (except for a few exceptions once in a while) been a lighter, more fun-type board. CG always has the best pics for us and it is interesting to see if we can spot any type p.s, do we think they are hot, like their hair color, what do we think of their lip length ratio, how are their bodies aging, etc. etc. IMO that board should stay that way and deeper discussions such as this should be moved over to this board. So, if someone posts a pic of a celeb here, it will be understood that they are wanting to delve deeper into the idea of what beauty entails, etc. so are open for those type debates vs posting a pic on the celeb board for basically entertainment purposes.

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Wow, this is still alive?

You tell me; last time we spoke I said my Internet service was spotty and I didn't know when I'd be back on but that I would be back...you, on the other hand, said you were bowing out of this conversation. The more you respond, the more it drags on, so please don't accuse me of beating a dead horse when you keep it going and have basically taken on Wotang's argument for him. I was pretty much done w/ W by the time you joined the discussion.

Maybe you misread what I wrote. Feel free to look through my history, as I've never attacked anyone on here and I hope you don't feel like I was picking sides and, worse, attacking you. If anything, I'm pretty liked here and one of the few who refuse to get into debates.

I don't feel I misread what you wrote; you have not attacked me but by taking on Wotang's arguments and, by talking to me in the same sentence about the flaws you see in my argument and then mentioning you are uncomfortable with the personal comments and one upmanship it is not clear that you are talking to Wotang.

My one upsmanship and debating comment was actually more directed to Wotang, to be honest.

See above. It would have behooved you to address Wotang directly and by name if you wanted to be clear about that.

But the need to make this new thread kind of draws you back into the mix.

Well, of course. Did you think the subject was dead b/c you had addressed it to your satisfaction? In the interests of not beating a dead horse let me remind you that you are not compelled to answer my comments...unless you want the last word. Is that the case?

The only reason a "third-party" like myself even bothered to respond to the previous thread was because reading the dialogue between you and Wotang it became obvious it was really a disagreement between semantics and intention.

Obviously, yes, to thinking adults, not so to Wotang. All you added to the conversation was to confuse issues and drag it on longer. Also to defend Wotang, which, if you're not taking sides, looks an awfully lot like you're taking sides.

Semantics because we were to infer you were offering your opinion without outright saying so (again, "attraction is dependent on personality" is a general statement, not an opinion no matter how much you add to the phrase after the fact, and several posts later).

I've addressed this previously by saying I was giving my opinion on the subject (in the casual way that Sue mentions, and without the knowledge that there is apparently an unwritten rust template that must be satisfied if I am to avoid an argument about my comments.) IMO, ALL of the comments on that thread and others like it are personal opinions and there is no need to clarify them further.

Nevertheless I did 1) Address the aesthetic comment and 2) would have been elaborated on this had I not been attacked by W, and 3) made very clear by my SECOND comment in the thread when Wotang directly challenged it. Now, among thinking adults it should have been over at that point but he wanted to drag it out and you, by jumping in and taking up his cause, continued to do so. The thinking adult comment is directed at Wotang, by the way, b/c, as I have disagreed with you, you do not argue childishly by making personal comments attacking the person whose argument you disagree with. That shows a level of maturity that I expect from such disagreements among adults.

Once clarified, I don't disagree with you. I think personality goes a LONG WAY towards attraction. But to interchange aesthetics for attraction is simply wrong.

In your opinion. In mine, not so. We both know how the other feels and are not likely to change our minds. To continue to argue this point is pointless, IMO. If you are interested more about my opinion regarding the looks more details about how this works for me personally more can be found in my comments yesterday in response to caterina:

http://missjfacialplasticsurgery.com/missjforum/yaf_postst6599p4_Is-Bradley-Cooper-good-looking.aspx

Wotang was a bit severe in his need for recognition of your supposed error. And I was just hoping to offer an outside view on what I saw you two doing. Doesn't make me right, but I think many people can agree they see where I'm coming from.

I agree with you on one thing here: doesn't make you right, and in my opinion you simply dragged the argument on as well as taking on W's argument for him, as I've said previously.

Now, I can't "know" what you're thinking so that's a mute point. Yet, you wave it proudly, so I'll play along. We're in agreement I can't "know" what another poster is thinking so isn't it the poster's job to be as clear about their thought as possible?

Sure, but in casual conversation there is a give and take with such comments, and I repeat again, that if there is no specific rust template that comments must be adhered to before rendering opinions it would be acceptable for this item to be clarified, as it very quickly was with my second post to the thread, even though the questions about aesthetics were previously answered, without being personally attacked by W.

If you want to argue for poster clarity, however, I would argue that in this discussion in your comments to me your disagreements w/ Wontang's behavior in the very same sentence would have been better addressed to him directly as to avoid confusion, as I have mentioned previously. Please note that I simply mentioned this, however, and did not jump down your throat for it, as I do expect that disagreements among adults (and especially on the Internet, where, as you say, intention may be hard to read)do happen and should not be the huge deal that this has become. Mountain, molehill.

Same with Wotang. I understood his "silly" comment immediately, but he was directing it towards your matter-of-fact response to his first question of looks, not attraction. Perhaps he should have been clearer, or at the least better about asking for clarification.

Yes, he should have been clearer, and most certainly less hostile, especially given that I DID address the question of aesthetics. That he didn't LIKE it is another kettle of fish altogether.

His response was, in my opinion (see? that's me making it clear it's my opinion - not "it's this, period"), pretty indicative of a frustrated person who's heard the "attraction is based on personality" cliche one too many times and it obviously hit close to home.

This is his personal problem, and not of concern to me. Adults should be able to handle differences of opinion without making personal attacks. This could have been addressed in a less childish way, and certainly in a less hostile way. But my suspicion is that he was not interested in arguing in such fashion b/c he was itching to have a fight with me since his last attempt to do so on very similar grounds was shut down and the thread frozen. Also? There are many people in the world disatisfied w/ their looks who do not take it out on unsuspecting persons. That's a sign of maturity, IMO. If he is indeed "a frustrated person who's heard the "attraction is based on personality" cliche one too many times" he needs to work that out with a shrink, and not with me, if he is to be successful in the world of adult interaction and avoid jumping into rages at innocent comments made by strangers on the Internet.

And like I said yesterday in my comments to him, had he made his comments w/out being so hostile he'd have had a more sympathetic response from me. He chose to be hostile, these are the results.

I will say, though, you seemed entertained at the potential to debate (cocktail in hand, I think I remember) and almost seeming to look forward to it. I imagine that's what this thread is about. Congrats.

I actually wasn't, b/c taking time to defend ad hominem attacks about whether I find a celebrity pretty or not is stupid and detracts from my enjoyment on this and other boards. I'm not known for making such ad hominem arguments but I am also known for not backing down when attacked, except in the case where someone on this board made a personal attack on me (previous to the one by Wotang) and stache froze the thread (against my wishes) and, when the subject came up again on another thread, again froze the thread against my wishes. I even asked him in a private conversation whether it would be okay to start up another thread, similar to this one, so that I could address some of the comments and his opinion was no. Even though I disagreed with him, I honored it as I know it was simply to keep the peace. His job is not easy, and I respect that, even as I disagree with his actions. When he froze the thread w/ Wontang I simply let it go, but obviously W. did not.

So by the time Wotang came at me the second time with a personal attack I did not relish it, but took on the attitude of "Let's get 'er done." which, I must say, was made easier by the imbibing of one cocktail, and did my best to make it at least somewhat entertaining for me. It's a stupid argument, but I let Wotang have his day in the sun as it were as he was obviously itching to have this argument.

Now, please remember that if you respond to my comments here you will be beating the dead horse you find so objectionable. I have a right to respond to comments made about me, especially when I wasn't allowed to do so in real time due to Internet issues, just as you (and Wotang, and whomever) have the right to do the same when you disagree w/ such comments.

This is pretty much the crux of the matter Rust and I think you phrased it perfectly, it's clear that you're an objective observer and it doesn't sound like your taking sides in what is a ridiculous thread.

Oh my, lol.

You weren't kidding when you said you liked a good debate, Diana. Must be another slow day. Have fun deconstructing this post line by line.

I suspect you'll get the last word in. That's fine, I'll sit back and enjoy what you have to say.

Wotang, quoting rust:

The only reason a "third-party" like myself even bothered to respond to the previous thread was because reading the dialogue between you and Wotang it became obvious it was really a disagreement between semantics and intention. Semantics because we were to infer you were offering your opinion without outright saying so (again, "attraction is dependent on personality" is a general statement, not an opinion no matter how much you add to the phrase after the fact, and several posts later).

Wontang himself:

This is pretty much the crux of the matter Rust and I think you phrased it perfectly, it's clear that you're an objective observer and it doesn't sound like your taking sides in what is a ridiculous thread.

It amuses me that you complain about ridiculousness since you’re the one who brought the crazy in the first place. Next time do try to make (and sustain) your own arguments. Having others do it for you doesn’t do you any favors.

Also please do remember the complete phrase was:

He's okay, the first pic that Cybergirl posted is the best. Whether he's attractive is dependent on personality.

http://missjfacialplasticsurgery.com/missjforum/yaf_postst6599_Is-Bradley-Cooper-good-looking.aspx

Which satisfies the aesthetic question and introduces the idea of personality.
Notice also my second post to that thread on the same page, which clarifies it:

Wotang, don't lecture me on what I do and don't find attractive, it's rude. I wouldn't dream of being so presumptive about your own aesthetic choices. We've been here before and it didn't go well for you last time...do you really want to go there again?

And while I’m flattered to be compared to/ the Terminator (as I do tend to be very thorough with my tasks) I’ll overlook the fact that you posted a pic of the Governator; he is very much disliked by Californians like myself since he proceeded to run our economy into the ground with his version of "bipartisanship" and "reaching across the aisle". I’m much more fiscally responsible than he is.☺

I think we’re pretty much done here (unless you’d care for another round-I'm always up for more) but I do have a question about a remark you made about your mandible…on the other thread you made a comment about your surgeon not caring one whit about your personality, which I wholeheartedly agree with; a good surgeon cares more about desirable surgical outcomes and the fact that you've paid him.

when I have my mandible broken in April next year I don't give a damn what my MaxFax surgeon thinks of personality.

http://missjfacialplasticsurgery.com/missjforum/yaf_postst6599p2_Is-Bradley-Cooper-good-looking.aspx

But he’s not the one you’re looking to replace w/ your shiny new mandible, is he? What do you think the surgery will accomplish for you? Who do you think it will impress? It appears to me that the latter is your goal more so than anything else.

Rust:

You weren't kidding when you said you liked a good debate, Diana.

I do like a good debate. Problem is, this has been a pretty stupid one, even while defending myself is always a worthy cause.

Must be another slow day.

Actually it was pretty typical day yesterday. I’m up earlier than many and more productive than most so I can fit quite a lot into my mornings; although it has been nice to have the summer off, albeit only for a couple more weeks.

Have fun deconstructing this post line by line.
I suspect you'll get the last word in. That's fine, I'll sit back and enjoy what you have to say.

It’s so much nicer when we get to enjoy it at the same time, no? ☺

Sue,

No need to thank me for something I was already doing.

Wontang:


You amuse me.
Rust wasn't arguing for me, not sure where you get that idea from.


From the fact that he was actually doing it? Despite the fact that he's said he's usually not for debates he's done an awful lot of debating...in your favor.


On the mandible, bravo and Happy Friday! What else are you intending to do to impress others?

I was never debating, merely encouraging clarity.