Wow, good find MissJ

Yes, Miss J, this is very true. I found this paper last year and have it on our forum. I have been in contact with one of the authors, Oliver Sorg (main researcher on that paper)

Our Resources section has a great many papers that spell out the dangers/possible side effects of IPL, Fraxel, etc. Dr. Sorg is a PHD researcher, not an MD but he wrote to me last year and said that IPL has the potential for great harm. Our Resource section has many excellent sources such as the peroxidation paper that back up much of what has been experienced by our members yet doctors deny. Actually, there are several well known docs who've seen members of our board and treated them post-laser and told our members that they've SEEN fat loss from these devices and KNOW this happens, then they merrily fill up their faces with fat. Go figure.

We have 7 members who have severe eye problems, three of whom have been diagonosed with thyroid masses and two with small pituitary tumors. None of them were given proper eye protection. Of the two with pit tumors, one had the doctor lift up her plastic goggles and use the IPL close to her lash line. The other with a pit tumor was given NO eye protection. One member is virtually blind. She was actually able to have an opthamologist tell her that the IPL damaged the nerve sheaths of her face/eyes and she is suing the doctor. We have an indentifiable pattern, but who's going to investigate and do anything about it? It's not possible to sue device makers, they are protected by a supreme court ruling. We've tried to get doctors to listen but they close ranks and stop being forthcoming once they are told that the patient had IPL or laser treatments.

There are other things I cannot really speak about openly, but suffice it to say that doctors do KNOW. They even turn on their own and device manufacturers come after doctors who are brave enough to expose the truth or they are 'black listed' within the medical community for speaking up. Parts of my forum are now private for just this reason. I had a member of the laser training community ATTACK me verbally and bombard me with threatening emails, so this is not conspiracy theory stuff, it is very real and SCARY, trust me.

This particular paper has always interested me, as well, for its implications:

Here is a link that is a synopsis of the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19587691

The doc whom I think you are referring to is pretty high on the propaganda pyramid for lasers as he is one of the key doctors they use in promotions. Consider that on one hand, he points out that success with them is highly "operator dependant". Although that is true (for the most part as he too has had unhappy patients even though he's a top laser guy), consider that he plays a very active role with regard to the laser industry being able to market and sell those devices to the mass MD market in which the buyers in that market (all you need is an MD to buy a laser) have little knowledge about lasers.

Sure, one can say outcomes are "operator dependant" but if one is using their guru status to PROMOTE SALES of these devices to a mass market of MDs, they are part of the PROBLEM because in effect, they are part of the process that sells the devices to operators with no demonstrated capacity to use such devices.

Laser gurus such as Dr. D**** certainly are not active in getting the laser industry to LIMIT SALES to doctors who actually have some background in laser science. Instead they are active in promoting sales to doctors with no background in laser science.

You misinterpreted my intent. I'm baffled at how blithely people take sun protection. The paper cited states one IPL session is about twice as damaging as one MED. But a lot of people here get more than one MED on a regular basis: far more often than they get IPL. Where I live, a lot of people get more than that ever day for six to nine months out of the year, year after year.

I do not see any real danger outlined in this particular paper. Many people here go swimming in the summer, and expose themselves to more damage than a single IPL session as outlined in the paper, and they are not up in arms about it. They do it repeatedly.

Also, as I previously stated: all skin rejuvenation methods that are not regular use topicals are damaging. One has to destroy and remove the damaged skin to make any significant change in the appearance. This is not possible without some adverse effect. Whether it's a device or a peel, long-term problems remain unknown. But people think the potential for problems is worth the trade-off regarding potential for improvement.

I think the entire device industry is a waste of money, because in almost every case the same effect can be had for an appropriate peel or series of peels for less money. But both alternatives require experienced, gifted operators and one does not always get that. In fact, it's pretty rare.

I also think it's difficult to find papers that show exactly how damaging procedures can be in the wrong hands, and patients are rarely if ever shown such pictures. I've never found any papers outlining the type of damage I experienced myself, and of course was not given one iota of info about potential problems by the doctor, but I have seen horrific outcomes from CO2 laser.

Maybe in the future, there will be papers stating that IPL is incredibly damaging, but this paper most certainly does not.

To be fair to Sorg (author of this paper), when he wrote to me he said that using IPL in an iterative way is what holds the most potential for harm and that the repeated use of these devices (mechanism of action) long-term is not well enough understood to use them long term. He is from Switzerland and he spoke with derms who use IPL in their practices and NONE of them are using it in an iterative mode due to the unknown long-term deleterious effects IPL could have. He feels IPL has a place, but only when used for a specific condition and in a specific area.

Personally, I think the 'poster' by Kimmig is more damaging to the reputation of IPL.

The problem with these devices is not just the operators, albeit that is the most important aspect if you have them to lessen your chances of bad outcomes but it won't eliminate bad outcomes completely. Their mechanism of action is not fully (100%) understood. Most doctors using them will admit this but they feel they know enough to declare them safe?! The main problem with these devices is how they are marketed, how they are promoted as "safe" with no side effects (other than burns and hypo/hyperpigmentation), and that none of them have long term studies to back up their efficacy. The FDA 501K process is the blame, along with medical device makers making good deals with laser gurus to become laser luminaries and push these devices at all of the major medical conferences and funding 'research' into the efficacy/safety of these devices. This is like the wolf guarding the hen house. ALL OF THIS is what people need to realize and own, all of the papers in the world speaking of possible bad outcomes or side-effects won't change any of that. Only we, as consumers, and doctors who know the truth and are brave enough to stand up to the device makers/FDA can change the first and most important problem: THE COSMETIC MEDICAL DEVICE APPROVAL PROCESS IS FLAWED.

Think of it like this, would you want a pacemaker put in your chest that was approved by the FDA simply because there was a similar device on the market in the 1960s or 1970s and the one being put in your chest in 2010 has had NO true clinical trials to prove it works, no true clinical trials to prove it does what it says, no true clinical trials to prove it is safe, and no true clinical trials that prove the long term side effects from its use? If so, go for it. Personally, I'm not taking anyone's 'word' for it that these things are safe, especially from the people manufacturing them or profiting from using them on the unsuspecting. But, maybe that's just me.

I'd say a lot of the problem with the lasers (and this is a big PROFIT industry), could be attributed to the CEO's. It's the CEO who is behind MAXIMIZING SALES and minimizing tech back up for the doctors who buy them and not to mention building false confidence about them to both doctors and patients. So, what you get is this big UNCERTAINTY GAP between the laser itself and the end point; the patient. The CEOs don't close the information gap nor do they limit sales to a select number of laser experts. A doctor being sold a laser could be in the LURCH as to how to use it. You've read the complaints by some doctors on that medspa board that the company did not provide backup as to how to use the lasers. Then you get the problem of doctors paying some 'operator' like $15/hour to use them where the operator might not know anything about lasers. The industry and how it's set up on a corporate level is RIFE with problems. Problems antagonistic to patients getting results touted by the industry. CEO's are the MIDDLE MEN for that.

Wonder if it's possible to have a class action suit aimed at one of their CEOs.

What about when you get laser hair removal is that also just as bad?